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Soon take the life of an innocent man
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FeelWhatIFeel
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Joined: 23 Nov 2007
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We know that the events in Saw IV are happening at the same time as Saw III and perhaps this is the reason why jigsaw states that Jeff is an innocent man. At the point where Strahm and Perez learn that they're involved in the game, Jeff has not reached Jigsaw yet. He has not commited any crimes at that point and he still has the opportunity to "forgive" and thereby prove his innocence.
In other words Jigsaw could not possibly know if Jeff would fail his game when he made the tape for the FBI agents. The tape was made before the events of both Saw III and IV. Jeff is still innocent at this point.
Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:40 pm View user's profile Send private message
TYPHOID
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he most certainly has, by the time they get the two envelopes, jeffs test has already started.
Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:48 am View user's profile Send private message
Zepp
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Before I start, I would like to note that I might use sarcasm solely for accenting the silliness of some of your comments and in no way I want to make this personal by insulting any of you guys.
Furthermore I’m not here to speculate on what and who Jigsaw meant by ‘innocent’ in that tape. I’m here only to advocate Jeff’s innocence.
So, that said, let us begin:

Quoting Julehh:
- - - - -
But really, if you met the people that killed your son or made your life a living hell because of it. Don't you think you would want revenge ? So yes, I doubt Jeff was innocent at all.
- - - - -
Quoting TYPHOID:
I have been blessed with 4 beautiful children so do not question where my loyalty resides.
I am NOT questioning Jeff's decisions to allow them to suffer. If it were me I most asurredlly would want these people to pay for their actions. No question about it.
- - - - -
So what you guys are basically saying is that whoever has children is doomed to become vengeful and violent should anything happen to them? This is not only hypocritical but you’re also insulting everyone who’s not like you…who is much more forgiving…

Quoting TYPHOID:
- - - - -
WE must all be responsible for our own actions.
Think of it this way, Jeff did NOT have to go through any of the doors.
It was his grief and desire for revenge that forced him through each door.
Therefore Jeff did not attain any level of innocence.
- - - - -
So…what? Should Jeff sit right there in a corner and not try to get out?
You’re saying it as if Jeff had a choice. As if he had an open door beside him and could walk away free at any time.
Jigsaw is a manipulator, he led Jeff precisely where he wanted him to be and made him feel exactly what he wanted him to feel. By no choice of Jeff was he put in the game and by no will of his own was he put into that emotional state of vengeance. If it wasn’t for Jigsaw, Jeff would’ve been still in his apartment wallowing in his own grief and regret. He had the choice to either sink deeper into depression or hunt down the ones he deemed guilty. He was stripped of that choice. That choice was made for him.
I can’t exactly recall now but was Jeff even aware of the existence of the witness who fled the crime scene?
Also, last time I checked, one could be prosecuted for a little something like pushing another to suicide.
In war, once one of the sides wins, it punishes the enemy generals, all those who gave orders, not the soldiers who obeyed them.
How can anybody have any true responsibility for their own actions in a situation like this?

Quoting TYPHOID:
- - - - -
dherna7704
Your own words only further prove my point.
By Jeffs own actions, did these people die.
- - - - -
Oh please, now that’s bullsh*t!
Jeff did try to save them. All of them!
Let us imagine that you’re walking by the frozen river in winter and suddenly you hear the ice break and you see a man drowning in the freezing water. Whether or not you know the person has little relevance, even if he’s someone you don’t like. Point is you did not ask to be put in that situation. You were there thinking about how your wife and kids are waiting for you at home a moment ago and the next your whole reality shifts into a completely different direction.
But of course I don’t know what you would’ve done yourself. Some people are naturally hesitant. Some people may even flee the scene out of fear, not wanting to deal with any of it. Some people would shout for someone else, try to get help. But some people wouldn’t give it a second thought and rush right to the rescue no matter what.
Jeff was hesitant at first of course. You could even say he was shocked. His mind was a mess piled up with fear, survival instinct, revenge and compassion. Eventually he tried to do the right thing. Man, he bore a scar trying to save the woman in the freezer room. He dove right into that sh*t to save the judge. He also wanted to save his son’s killer. All the while setting aside his personal quarrels with those people…well, for the most part at least.
Jeff is a f*cking hero!

Also I wanted to express a little something about Jigsaw to burst any dream bubbles some of you might have about him.
Obviously he is a psychopath serial killer. He is a villain. Therefore I don’t think his reasoning can be rationalised in any way. His logic is sick and dishonest. Therefore he is far from righteous. The ‘innocent’ part could’ve meant anyone and anything as far as we know for now.
The whole ‘he doesn’t kill people, he finds ways for people to kill themselves’ has been inconsistent since like…SAW I.
Dr. Gordon, Adam, Amanda, Art, Morgan - all of them had to kill their cellmate in order to survive. Zepp was ordered to kill Gordon and Adam once they run out of time. How is that fare to the one who’s being killed? What chance do they have to ‘save themselves’? And how does becoming another Cecil make you ‘cherish your life’?
John said he despised murderers. Oh please, he bred them!

And if by any chance Rigg would’ve left Brenda in the Hair Trap, Jigsaw would’ve succeeded in killing her. Though I know that can be disputed - was the trap activated before or after Rigg got the warning not to touch it?

Still, the worst excuse to torture and kill a victim by far was Detective Kerry’s Angel Trap. What!? Are we killing people for just being antisocial bi*ches now?

And that’s my rant.
Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:01 pm View user's profile Send private message
TYPHOID
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Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 96

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Zepp wrote:
Before I start, I would like to note that I might use sarcasm solely for accenting the silliness of some of your comments and in no way I want to make this personal by insulting any of you guys.
Furthermore I’m not here to speculate on what and who Jigsaw meant by ‘innocent’ in that tape. I’m here only to advocate Jeff’s innocence.
So, that said, let us begin:

Quoting Julehh:
- - - - -
But really, if you met the people that killed your son or made your life a living hell because of it. Don't you think you would want revenge ? So yes, I doubt Jeff was innocent at all.
- - - - -
Quoting TYPHOID:
I have been blessed with 4 beautiful children so do not question where my loyalty resides.
I am NOT questioning Jeff's decisions to allow them to suffer. If it were me I most asurredlly would want these people to pay for their actions. No question about it.
- - - - -
So what you guys are basically saying is that whoever has children is doomed to become vengeful and violent should anything happen to them? This is not only hypocritical but you’re also insulting everyone who’s not like you…who is much more forgiving…

Quoting TYPHOID:
- - - - -
WE must all be responsible for our own actions.
Think of it this way, Jeff did NOT have to go through any of the doors.
It was his grief and desire for revenge that forced him through each door.
Therefore Jeff did not attain any level of innocence.
- - - - -
So…what? Should Jeff sit right there in a corner and not try to get out?
You’re saying it as if Jeff had a choice. As if he had an open door beside him and could walk away free at any time.
Jigsaw is a manipulator, he led Jeff precisely where he wanted him to be and made him feel exactly what he wanted him to feel. By no choice of Jeff was he put in the game and by no will of his own was he put into that emotional state of vengeance. If it wasn’t for Jigsaw, Jeff would’ve been still in his apartment wallowing in his own grief and regret. He had the choice to either sink deeper into depression or hunt down the ones he deemed guilty. He was stripped of that choice. That choice was made for him.
I can’t exactly recall now but was Jeff even aware of the existence of the witness who fled the crime scene?
Also, last time I checked, one could be prosecuted for a little something like pushing another to suicide.
In war, once one of the sides wins, it punishes the enemy generals, all those who gave orders, not the soldiers who obeyed them.
How can anybody have any true responsibility for their own actions in a situation like this?

Quoting TYPHOID:
- - - - -
dherna7704
Your own words only further prove my point.
By Jeffs own actions, did these people die.
- - - - -
Oh please, now that’s bullsh*t!
Jeff did try to save them. All of them!
Let us imagine that you’re walking by the frozen river in winter and suddenly you hear the ice break and you see a man drowning in the freezing water. Whether or not you know the person has little relevance, even if he’s someone you don’t like. Point is you did not ask to be put in that situation. You were there thinking about how your wife and kids are waiting for you at home a moment ago and the next your whole reality shifts into a completely different direction.
But of course I don’t know what you would’ve done yourself. Some people are naturally hesitant. Some people may even flee the scene out of fear, not wanting to deal with any of it. Some people would shout for someone else, try to get help. But some people wouldn’t give it a second thought and rush right to the rescue no matter what.
Jeff was hesitant at first of course. You could even say he was shocked. His mind was a mess piled up with fear, survival instinct, revenge and compassion. Eventually he tried to do the right thing. Man, he bore a scar trying to save the woman in the freezer room. He dove right into that sh*t to save the judge. He also wanted to save his son’s killer. All the while setting aside his personal quarrels with those people…well, for the most part at least.
Jeff is a f*cking hero!

Also I wanted to express a little something about Jigsaw to burst any dream bubbles some of you might have about him.
Obviously he is a psychopath serial killer. He is a villain. Therefore I don’t think his reasoning can be rationalised in any way. His logic is sick and dishonest. Therefore he is far from righteous. The ‘innocent’ part could’ve meant anyone and anything as far as we know for now.
The whole ‘he doesn’t kill people, he finds ways for people to kill themselves’ has been inconsistent since like…SAW I.
Dr. Gordon, Adam, Amanda, Art, Morgan - all of them had to kill their cellmate in order to survive. Zepp was ordered to kill Gordon and Adam once they run out of time. How is that fare to the one who’s being killed? What chance do they have to ‘save themselves’? And how does becoming another Cecil make you ‘cherish your life’?
John said he despised murderers. Oh please, he bred them!

And if by any chance Rigg would’ve left Brenda in the Hair Trap, Jigsaw would’ve succeeded in killing her. Though I know that can be disputed - was the trap activated before or after Rigg got the warning not to touch it?

Still, the worst excuse to torture and kill a victim by far was Detective Kerry’s Angel Trap. What!? Are we killing people for just being antisocial bi*ches now?

And that’s my rant.


That is a long post with a lot of words,
You missed the point entirely as well.
Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:49 am View user's profile Send private message
Zepp
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Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 194

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TYPHOID wrote:
That is a long post with a lot of words,
You missed the point entirely as well.

Beg your pardon but I don't think I have.
If you care to explain how, maybe then I'll stand corrected.
Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:14 pm View user's profile Send private message
TYPHOID
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Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 96

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Zepp wrote:
TYPHOID wrote:
That is a long post with a lot of words,
You missed the point entirely as well.

Beg your pardon but I don't think I have.
If you care to explain how, maybe then I'll stand corrected.

Simple, Jeff is not INNOCENT!

He chose to enter each room. Invariably initiating each test.
Causing the death of each person. If Jeff had tried to come to terms with the tragic loss of his son. He would not have woken up in a crate.

It was vengeance that put him in that crate and it was the desire for revenge that caused their deaths. (Danika, the judge,Timothy young)

I said it before and I will say it again, Jeff did NOT have to open any of the doors.
Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:46 pm View user's profile Send private message
Amanda360
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Joined: 10 Nov 2007
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I like to think in my own mind, that Jeff is not the innocent man that Perez's tape referred to, and for one main thing only. Jeff's tape said that he would be given the chance to face all of the people that were responsible for the loss of his child. It is understandable that Jeff was upset and still grieving, he's human. However, he stood and held each person at fault before even attempting to save their lives.

The fact that he opened each door by the sheer desire to "get a chance to face the man responsible for the loss of his child" means he is not innocent at all. Jeff is a human being but at the same time obviously consumed by vengence. Despite the fact that the judge was saved from dying in his trap, Jeff's anger caused him to allow those other people to die. He realized that these people were human at the last minute, and it was too late to save them. Thus making him guilty not innocent .
Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:17 pm View user's profile Send private message
spike241
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Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 90

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If Jeff hadn't opened the doors to the traps he would have died
I don't think it was a desire for vengeance that made him open the doors as he didn't know who was behind them. He didn't know what was going on and so followed the only available path, leading him to the traps.

And Kerry was taken because Jigsaw didn't think she cherished her life
Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:23 am View user's profile Send private message
Zepp
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Thank you spike, that’s what I’ve tried to get through as well.
Typhoid, you still sing the same old song, disregarding everything I said.
I welcome you to disprove any of the points I made, otherwise I don’t think your perspective stands scrutiny.
I currently follow this formula in the matter:
1) Jeff was given no other choice;
2) He was put in a situation that shattered his own reality against his will;
3) He was forced to undergo a traumatic emotional state;
4) He had no say in the matter;
5) He was manipulated by Jigsaw in doing what he wanted him to do;
6) If it wasn’t for Jigsaw none of that would’ve happened;
Therefore Jeff can’t be held accountable for all his actions and therefore he is innocent as far as the deaths of those three people go.

Yes, all Jeff is guilty of is being the perfect candidate for Jigsaw’s sadistic games.
But that’s like saying he picked you because you walked funny down the street.

And yes, you’re right, spike, but comparing it to all other traps, the main reason why Jigsaw picked victims is because they physically hunt themselves and the people around them. As far as I remember Kerry did not meat the criteria, making Jigsaw’s reasoning in that particular situation the lousiest excuse to kill off a main character.
Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:53 am View user's profile Send private message
TYPHOID
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Posts: 96

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Zepp wrote:
Thank you spike, that’s what I’ve tried to get through as well.
Typhoid, you still sing the same old song, disregarding everything I said.
I welcome you to disprove any of the points I made, otherwise I don’t think your perspective stands scrutiny.
I currently follow this formula in the matter:
1) Jeff was given no other choice;
2) He was put in a situation that shattered his own reality against his will;
3) He was forced to undergo a traumatic emotional state;
4) He had no say in the matter;
5) He was manipulated by Jigsaw in doing what he wanted him to do;
6) If it wasn’t for Jigsaw none of that would’ve happened;
Therefore Jeff can’t be held accountable for all his actions and therefore he is innocent as far as the deaths of those three people go.

Yes, all Jeff is guilty of is being the perfect candidate for Jigsaw’s sadistic games.
But that’s like saying he picked you because you walked funny down the street.

And yes, you’re right, spike, but comparing it to all other traps, the main reason why Jigsaw picked victims is because they physically hunt themselves and the people around them. As far as I remember Kerry did not meat the criteria, making Jigsaw’s reasoning in that particular situation the lousiest excuse to kill off a main character.

Have you even watched these movies. Because YOU obviously do not get what Jigsaw is all about!
Answer to all your so called points:

Jeff did this to himself!
He is not there because of Jigsaw, Jeff is there because of his unwillingness to deal with the loss of his son.

1: EVERYONE has a choice in life, some just choose to take the easy way out.
2:I am not sure exactly what that means but once again Jeff put himself in that position.
3:Again not sure what you are babbling about,you like to use the word "forced".You Just Don't Get It !
4: Jeff had all the say but was to WEAK to make the right choice.
5:You are mistaking Choice for Manipulation.
6: IF IT WASN'T FOR JIGSAW....... ARE YOU SERIOUS...

Jeff was in the box because of his own choices.................................
Verdict...............NOT INNOCENT...............................................
Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:27 pm View user's profile Send private message
bobgfor
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Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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Jeff never committed any crimes

He was extremely upset

And rightfully so (if it were my son....well you know)

Being upset is not a crime
Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:24 pm View user's profile Send private message
Zepp
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TYPHOID wrote:
Have you even watched these movies. Because YOU obviously do not get what Jigsaw is all about!

Yes, I am a big fan of these movies.
But I’m also realist enough to understand that Jigsaw is not a metaphor for god’s retribution. I do not idolize him like apparently you do. Granted he has a noble cause but he chose the worst way possible to implement it. He is a villain. And by the laws of all humanity, which he is a part of, he must answer for his cruelty.

Quote:
Answer to all your so called points:

And look at every single one of your answers. They prove that you cannot look past your own preestablished ideology - your own fantasy that somehow John Krammer, a man, has nothing to do with all this. Are you religious?

Quote:
Jeff did this to himself!
He is not there because of Jigsaw, Jeff is there because of his unwillingness to deal with the loss of his son.

Do you realize that you are currently defending Hitler?
He murdered thousands of people just for being Christians and Jews. Do you honestly believe that it was their fault in the first place? Seriously, do you want to be labeled as a neonazi?

Quote:
1: EVERYONE has a choice in life, some just choose to take the easy way out.

I wasn’t talking about ‘life’, I was talking about the trap. Let’s call things what they really are, ok?
And there never was any easy way out in the trap.

Quote:
2:I am not sure exactly what that means but once again Jeff put himself in that position.

Research psychology and sociology, then you might understand.
Right, so Jeff captured himself, put himself in a crate and set up a nice sadistic game for himself… oh please! Rolling Eyes

Quote:
3:Again not sure what you are babbling about,you like to use the word "forced".You Just Don't Get It !

I do get it because I look at things the way they really are. You want to use these movies to push your own metaphorical and ideological agenda, fine. But you still never said anything new to people past “You just don’t get it!” You’re defending your own opinion with points that I already disproved but you are too ignorant to realise that.

Quote:
4: Jeff had all the say but was to WEAK to make the right choice.

Yeah, so were the Jews, they didn’t do anything in Germany until it was too late.
You gonna punish people for being weak willed now?

Quote:
5:You are mistaking Choice for Manipulation.

How so? Please do explain.
I wonder if this is another futile attempt by me to make you think over your perspective a bit harder…

Quote:
6: IF IT WASN'T FOR JIGSAW....... ARE YOU SERIOUS...

Yes, I am very serious. Jigsaw is not god! Oh my! What a shocker! Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Jeff was in the box because of his own choices.................................
Verdict...............NOT INNOCENT...............................................

See, even other people, like bob here before me, can tell you faster then me the big hole in your opinion.
There’s a big difference between thinking about something and doing it.
It doesn’t matter if we believe in god or not, I have a birth given right to express my anger and sadness, which sometimes indeed have the potential to wreck my life but nonetheless I still have the choice to learn how to control them, so they wouldn’t control me, or not.
Instead Jigsaw decided to take matters into his own hands. He decided that he was the perfect man to make all our choices for us, by stripping us from our own liberty to act. He decided to play the role of god, something he never was. He is still a man and can be punished by law as such.

I already disproved his fantasy righteousness previously in this thread.
I say disprove since it has never been disputed by anybody else.
Now I’ll give you the chance to do just that:
Typhoid, how would you justify the death’s of Amanda’s cellmate and Morgan’s husband, Rex?
They clearly were never given any chance of survival. They were downright executed.
And if you’ll say that Jigsaw has nothing to do with this, it’s all the victim’s own fault, the other victims killed them, which will also prove how predictable you are, then there’s nothing more I will say to you. I will let you be free in your own little fantasy reality. Wink
Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:47 am View user's profile Send private message
Sin
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This is one very long, VERY quote filled
thread.
Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:10 am View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Shadowman3X88
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Yeah, can we just get back to the point... Err... MY point. lol
I still don't think Jigsaw was talking about Jeff, whether he's innocent or not. Also, Jigsaw couldn't have known that Strahm would kill Jeff. That's what I think.

I believe the "innocent man" will probably be revealed in SAW V.
Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:07 am View user's profile Send private message
Sin
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Shadowman3X88
Quote:
Yeah, can we just get back to the point... Err... MY point. lol
I still don't think Jigsaw was talking about Jeff, whether he's innocent or not. Also, Jigsaw couldn't have known that Strahm would kill Jeff. That's what I think.

I believe the "innocent man" will probably be revealed in SAW V.


I agree with Shadowman3X88, although Jigsaw
does seem to know what people are going to do
before they even know what they are going to
do. In other words I don't think the tape was
referring to Jeff.
Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:16 am View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
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